Thank you BMW

[nielsm]

I'll give you a for instance: Every member of AZ Beemers that bought a K1600 when they came out had at least 1 water pump failure. One guy had 4 and bought a spare for trips as some dealers had issues getting them. My peeve with my RT is the throttle body pulleys. There are a few threads on the BMW Sport Touring forum on it. A lot of us put in complaints to the NHTSA about and some got calls from them, but nothing came of it. Those bikes are old now, but it's a hell of a way to cheap out. As far as the manuals go, they don't want us working on our own machines and probably would like us to trade up every 3-4 years. I know BMW cars are going to a subscription service on options. Want heated seats? Pay a monthly fee. That way they just build all the cars the same and have revenue continuously for options instead of pay once. I am surprised HD hasn't figured that one out. We only have one independent BMW shop in AZ. The others are chain types with high rent and everything that goes a long with it.

My point isn’t to say that no bike will ever have an issue. There are always examples of where someone had an issue and the internet tends to amplify negative experiences so it appears to be widespread. in general BMW bikes are built well and it’s not unusual for > 200K miles if you keep up with maintenance.

I fully agree on the manuals & it is a pet peeve of mine. It’s actually the dealers pushing for that, since they make most of their money on service. But, be friendly with the techs and you can get the torque values you need for most typical maintenance.

I don’t have as strong a reaction to pay to enable features as some others. It can be a benefit as you can choose to add a feature after you bought something and the simpler manufacturing reduces overall costs. If you only keep a vehicle for a short period, a subscription might be cheaper than buying the feature outright. For example, BMW heated seats are $18/month or $415 to permanently enable. If you use heated seats 1 month a year in Arizona and only keep the car 3 years, the subscription is only ~15% of the cost of buying it outright and you get to spread out payments. If I never used heated seats and thus never paid for it, but I sell the car to someone in a colder region, they can choose to add the feature as needed, thus increasing the market for my car than if the feature couldn’t be enabled. I don’t see an issue in having it as an option.

 

[ponch]

My point isn’t to say that no bike will ever have an issue. There are always examples of where someone had an issue and the internet tends to amplify negative experiences so it appears to be widespread. in general BMW bikes are built well and it’s not unusual for > 200K miles if you keep up with maintenance.

I fully agree on the manuals & it is a pet peeve of mine. It’s actually the dealers pushing for that, since they make most of their money on service. But, be friendly with the techs and you can get the torque values you need for most typical maintenance.

I don’t have as strong a reaction to pay to enable features as some others. It can be a benefit as you can choose to add a feature after you bought something and the simpler manufacturing reduces overall costs. If you only keep a vehicle for a short period, a subscription might be cheaper than buying the feature outright. For example, BMW heated seats are $18/month or $415 to permanently enable. If you use heated seats 1 month a year in Arizona and only keep the car 3 years, the subscription is only ~15% of the cost of buying it outright and you get to spread out payments. If I never used heated seats and thus never paid for it, but I sell the car to someone in a colder region, they can choose to add the feature as needed, thus increasing the market for my car than if the feature couldn’t be enabled. I don’t see an issue in having it as an option.

You're missing the @#$$ing point. Every member that bought one. That's half a dozen for sure and some more than one. Not every bike manufacturer has issues like that. It's a corporate QC/QA problem with quality fade or just poor design. As far as mileage, I know of Japanese bikes that have gone over 400K. The only BMWs that I have seen with that many miles have been out of production for a while. Bottom line, I don't drink the kool aid. Seems familiar statement here so I'll repeat: Maybe you'd be more comfortable with HD. They like people that are brand tribalistic. I will call BS on anything when it exists. No need to justify my choices with sunk thinking.

 

[nielsm]

You're missing the @#$$ing point. Every member that bought one. That's half a dozen for sure and some more than one. Not every bike manufacturer has issues like that. It's a corporate QC/QA problem with quality fade or just poor design. As far as mileage, I know of Japanese bikes that have gone over 400K. The only BMWs that I have seen with that many miles have been out of production for a while. Bottom line, I don't drink the kool aid. Seems familiar statement here so I'll repeat: Maybe you'd be more comfortable with HD. They like people that are brand tribalistic. I will call BS on anything when it exists. No need to justify my choices with sunk thinking.

I’m sorry you and your friends had issues. My point isn’t that it can’t happen, but it is far to easy to use Internet forum complains or some local examples to assume an issue is widespread.

I ride with at least a dozen K1600s in my area from first model year thru last model year and none had a water pump issue. But a couple had issues with the coils. It’s too small a sample size for me to make any assumptions. Maybe Arizona climate increases the likelihood of water pump issues, at least on the K1600.

BMW isn’t perfect, I don’t like their service manual policy, nor their dealer decoration policies. I’ll call them out where I disagree. But in general, I’ve had an overall good experience with BMW.

I’ve tried a number of brands and there are some models that do resonate with me. I’m likely to add a KTM, Triumph and MotoGuzzi to the fleet in the next few years. Especially with KTM, I go in with full understanding that they aren’t the most reliable, dealers are even harder to come by than BMW and they need maintenance frequently, but the performance makes the overall experience worth it to me. Sadly, while Japanese bikes are well regarded for reliability, all the ones I tried I found boring and a bit small physical ergonomics for me, so they were never a viable option for me. I expect others may have different experiences.

 

[Mr Signore]

I’m sorry you and your friends had issues. My point isn’t that it can’t happen, but it is far to easy to use Internet forum complains or some local examples to assume an issue is widespread.

I ride with at least a dozen K1600s in my area from first model year thru last model year and none had a water pump issue. But a couple had issues with the coils. It’s too small a sample size for me to make any assumptions. Maybe Arizona climate increases the likelihood of water pump issues, at least on the K1600.

BMW isn’t perfect, I don’t like their service manual policy, nor their dealer decoration policies. I’ll call them out where I disagree. But in general, I’ve had an overall good experience with BMW.

I’ve tried a number of brands and there are some models that do resonate with me. I’m likely to add a KTM, Triumph and MotoGuzzi to the fleet in the next few years. Especially with KTM, I go in with full understanding that they aren’t the most reliable, dealers are even harder to come by than BMW and they need maintenance frequently, but the performance makes the overall experience worth it to me. Sadly, while Japanese bikes are well regarded for reliability, all the ones I tried I found boring and a bit small physical ergonomics for me, so they were never a viable option for me. I expect others may have different experiences.

MotoGuzzi produces very nice bikes, but they are small ergonomically unfortunately. I am 6"3, and found them too small for me although I liked the style a lot. From the Triumph range only scrambler 1200 xe/xc is a good fit, so I am considering buying it as a lightweight option for off road riding. Can't comment on ktm as I don't like the style so did not consider it as an option, but I was positively surprised with the look and ergonomics of the new Ducatti Scrambler, so it may be an alternative to Truimph Scrambler

 

[Mr Signore]

Re Japanese bikes, I own Honda Fury for 12+ years since new and not gonna sell it. Upgraded it with SUMO fat tire kit, which doubled the bike's cost One of the best bikes for tall riders but agree its engine is boring.

 

[ponch]

I’m sorry you and your friends had issues. My point isn’t that it can’t happen, but it is far to easy to use Internet forum complains or some local examples to assume an issue is widespread.

I ride with at least a dozen K1600s in my area from first model year thru last model year and none had a water pump issue. But a couple had issues with the coils. It’s too small a sample size for me to make any assumptions. Maybe Arizona climate increases the likelihood of water pump issues, at least on the K1600.

BMW isn’t perfect, I don’t like their service manual policy, nor their dealer decoration policies. I’ll call them out where I disagree. But in general, I’ve had an overall good experience with BMW.

I’ve tried a number of brands and there are some models that do resonate with me. I’m likely to add a KTM, Triumph and MotoGuzzi to the fleet in the next few years. Especially with KTM, I go in with full understanding that they aren’t the most reliable, dealers are even harder to come by than BMW and they need maintenance frequently, but the performance makes the overall experience worth it to me. Sadly, while Japanese bikes are well regarded for reliability, all the ones I tried I found boring and a bit small physical ergonomics for me, so they were never a viable option for me. I expect others may have different experiences.

And my point still stands. I live in AZ. Maybe the heat factors in, but then why wasn't it designed with that in mind? At one time BMW had a lot of stupid issues. Fuel strips, final drives across generations(lifetime fill?), switchgear, plastic throttle body pulleys that crack and then there are the recalls. Fuel pumps. Twice. Stop sell/ride orders due to shocks. I am sure I am missing a few. My point is that they aren't nearly perfect in reliability and IMO don't deserve the brand tribalism some give them, but then nothing probably does. Maybe Honda.
As far as Italian bikes, I'll run like hell and I am part Italian.
In terms of ergonomics, IDK which Japanese bikes you looked at. Some work for tall riders. I get the boring angle, but the Japanese do a better job at putting bikes together in general.

If you think I am critical, you'll love this rant:

 

[ponch]

Re Japanese bikes, I own Honda Fury for 12+ years since new and not gonna sell it. Upgraded it with SUMO fat tire kit, which doubled the bike's cost One of the best bikes for tall riders but agree its engine is boring.

A set of pipes might help the boring factor. It'll last another 12 years at least.

 

[ponch]

MotoGuzzi produces very nice bikes, but they are small ergonomically unfortunately. I am 6"3, and found them too small for me although I liked the style a lot. From the Triumph range only scrambler 1200 xe/xc is a good fit, so I am considering buying it as a lightweight option for off road riding. Can't comment on ktm as I don't like the style so did not consider it as an option, but I was positively surprised with the look and ergonomics of the new Ducatti Scrambler, so it may be an alternative to Truimph Scrambler

I'm 6'5/34" inseam. Ergos matter to me. Even with my RT I had to put peg lowering kit, bar risers and a bigger windscreen. The GSA probably would be a little better, but then one has to add the luggage and other ergo mods and it's already an expensive bike and it doesn't have the wind protection of a touring bike. I also don't ride off road at all, so I skipped it. I've tried the PA too. Other than the engine, there's nothing remarkable about it. It's not as refined as the GS/A and the ergos are biased more for shorter folks. Good engine though, power wise. The other downside is dealing with HD dealers in my area. I'd rather not. The only dealer I'd go to is Ironhorse and they are 120 miles away. The other BMW dealers are corporate chain types and I've had bad experiences with them.

 

[Mr Signore]

A set of pipes might help the boring factor. It'll last another 12 years at least.

Well... I do have Cobra's.. but the engine is still the week point

 

[nielsm]

And my point still stands. I live in AZ. Maybe the heat factors in, but then why wasn't it designed with that in mind? At one time BMW had a lot of stupid issues. Fuel strips, final drives across generations(lifetime fill?), switchgear, plastic throttle body pulleys that crack and then there are the recalls. Fuel pumps. Twice. Stop sell/ride orders due to shocks. I am sure I am missing a few. My point is that they aren't nearly perfect in reliability and IMO don't deserve the brand tribalism some give them, but then nothing probably does. Maybe Honda.
As far as Italian bikes, I'll run like hell and I am part Italian.
In terms of ergonomics, IDK which Japanese bikes you looked at. Some work for tall riders. I get the boring angle, but the Japanese do a better job at putting bikes together in general.

If you think I am critical, you'll love this rant:

It all comes down to what you prioritize in your bikes. Japanese will tend to be reliable with little to no maintainance, but kinda boring, and limited performance. The only ones I found I could fit on were the dirt bikes or adventure bikes & the others I never cared for the looks of. Ducati are beautiful and can scream performance, but working on desmo valves is a pain (a friend has a couple early Monsters) & at 6’4”, I can’t fit on most of them, except the first gen Monsters and the Multistrada. Harley went thru the period of Hardly Working & they aren’t known for performance, but at least there are dealers everywhere & since the models never change, easy to get aftermarket parts. KTM is more like Ducati but dirt oriented. When it works, it’s brilliant, but it needs constant attention. BMW & Triumph sort of split the difference, more reliable than the Ducatis & KTMs, better performance than many other marks.

We all pick what aspects matter most to us & our own experience with a brand has a substantial influence to our future buying. I very nearly bought a Triumph Bobber before I bought my R18, but that they are made in Thailand & still cost a premium & my prior experience with BMW let the R18 nudge ahead. My 50 year old R75/5 took me for a 200 mile day for this weekend’s DGR & my 10 year old GSA will take me on a 2100 mile dirt trip on a BDR next month. I’ve no worries about those bikes making those trips. Would a Honda be more reliable? Maybe, but to me that‘s not the only factor in picking a bike.

 

[ponch]

It all comes down to what you prioritize in your bikes. Japanese will tend to be reliable with little to no maintainance, but kinda boring, and limited performance. The only ones I found I could fit on were the dirt bikes or adventure bikes & the others I never cared for the looks of. Ducati are beautiful and can scream performance, but working on desmo valves is a pain (a friend has a couple early Monsters) & at 6’4”, I can’t fit on most of them, except the first gen Monsters and the Multistrada. Harley went thru the period of Hardly Working & they aren’t known for performance, but at least there are dealers everywhere & since the models never change, easy to get aftermarket parts. KTM is more like Ducati but dirt oriented. When it works, it’s brilliant, but it needs constant attention. BMW & Triumph sort of split the difference, more reliable than the Ducatis & KTMs, better performance than many other marks.

We all pick what aspects matter most to us & our own experience with a brand has a substantial influence to our future buying. I very nearly bought a Triumph Bobber before I bought my R18, but that they are made in Thailand & still cost a premium & my prior experience with BMW let the R18 nudge ahead. My 50 year old R75/5 took me for a 200 mile day for this weekend’s DGR & my 10 year old GSA will take me on a 2100 mile dirt trip on a BDR next month. I’ve no worries about those bikes making those trips. Would a Honda be more reliable? Maybe, but to me that‘s not the only factor in picking a bike.

It isn't the only factor, that's true. Japanese bikes can be ho hum, even the good ones, like Gold Wings. Boring. But there are times when unique has it's problems too. I just don't drink kool-aid and I probably don't fit the BMW demo. Some people get into brand tribalism or beliefs to justify actions, whatever. Nothing is perfect, but BMW isn't Unstoppable as the ad says. Just keeping it real.