Tube or Tubeless

[Deleted member 939]

Outex(R) is the answer. R18C provided a link to Woody's Wheel Works in an earlier post. I get mine from Woody's since they cannot be had from Ronin (in Japan) any longer - that proprietor passed on I believe.

Outex can probably be deemed 'standard fitment' on potentially all period-correct Ducati's still running around on spoked wheels, quite a number of them doing track days as well - which bears particularly good testament given how hot motorcycle wheels get on track days. I often hear that Outex is OK for lighter rides like Ducati's but not on heavier rigs like H-Ds. I've got a set fitted on my 2015 Chief Vintage since 2016 already, absolutely no issue, and hope to fit same on my R18 and FLH before year-end. It is a lot of work, mind, but well worth it - cleaning, cleaning and then some more cleaning. I will post photos when I get around to it.

You cannot have wheels on the R18, laced like they are on a GS1250 or sold by aftermarket Keneo(R). It would be like wearing a t-shirt with your tux. Or a gilded bow-tie with shorts in the case of the Keneo hoops.

Great write up and thx.I thought about getting the mag wheels but really like the looks of the spokes and with the sidecar.It is,can I say Classic?
When I am out riding or stopping for gas, folks think it is a old BMW and are very suprised when I say it is a 2021.
I will probably go with Outex Tubless Kit as well.Lastly,there are quite a few videos on YouTube that show folks making their own kits with 3M products.

 

[bryl56]

Hope or Molasses,I would be more concerned the way they tied your bike on the flatbed.I have personally seen the frame damaged by pulling pressure on the bolt.It literally pulled out the center bolt where the bar attaches to the frame.The bike was a rental and the dealer had to order a new frame.

I paid attention to how the bike was stowed on the flatbed: Two straps at the front on engine protection bar and two straps at the back on rear wheel swinging arm. No damage was found upon arrival.

 

[estoma]

Great write up and thx.I thought about getting the mag wheels but really like the looks of the spokes and with the sidecar.It is,can I say Classic?
When I am out riding or stopping for gas, folks think it is a old BMW and are very suprised when I say it is a 2021.
I will probably go with Outex Tubless Kit as well.Lastly,there are quite a few videos on YouTube that show folks making their own kits with 3M products.

Agreed - those wheels absolutely need to be spoked, and correctly spoked, more so on the Classic as you said. The Outex(R) Kits come with everything you need in the correct quantities and I do tend to get lost with all the different 3M product numbers at times. They really should clean up their marketing act.

First thing obviously is to remove tires, tubes and rubber rim bands and to thoroughly check that the wheels run as true as you wish and what not - now is the best time to vet spoke tightness too. Best have a spoke torque wrench ready for that. Next inspect the spoke nipple surfaces inside the rims - remove any irregular protrusions and sharp edges with the Dremmel. I coat all ground edges with Birchwood Casey(R) gun-metal blue following that (https://www.amazon.com/BW-Casey-Aluminum-Black-Touch-Up/dp/B002JCW2CG/ref=pd_bxgy_img_sccl_1/132-1352578-6743467), but the R18 has Alu rims and SS spokes, so no need in this case. Install the wheel spacers with a piece of threaded bar and fender washers, to allow deep-cleaning the rims (soapy water and a brush). Rinse well and blow thoroughly dry with compressed air, especially around the nipples. This might need to be done twice, depending on how many miles the tires were on. Next, clean the rim insides with glass/window cleaner and wipe again thoroughly with a soft clean cloth.

Now is a good time to read the Outex instructions, watch some videos (http://www.outex.jp/tubelesskitenglishlist.htm) and to do a trial run installing the double-sided tape, but using painters' tape or masking tape, of the appropriate width, instead. Mainly to determine how you will stand or kneel, how you will roll the wheel and work out bubbles, where you need your tools to be and how you will prevent your own sweat from dripping all over the job. You do not want to discover issues with your own application method once you started laying down that double-sided tape. That stuff is wicked sticky and cannot be satisfactorily removed. The main thing is to consistently lay the tape over the rim center, covering nipples properly, and not to unduly stretch the tape while doing that. Do the trial run on the front wheel which has the deeper valley and uses the narrower tape. Don't fret - it is not nearly as daunting as I might make it sound, but it is extremely frustrating if you mess something up due to your own poor planning and preparation. Especially when 'experience' is supposedly the one sure thing validating us not having crossed our 'better-before-date' yet (-: It is a surprisingly quick install once you get your rhythm.

Clean the rims again with window cleaner, wipe dry, and finally clean it with rubbing alcohol and wipe dry again. Now start application as per your preferred video. Woody's supply a goop that they suggest using on the spoke nipples, instead of the small cutout decals in the Outex kit. I prefer the decals nevertheless. Do not skip installing these, as some folk has unwisely opted on occasion. They make it possible to adjust the spokes in future without damaging the Outex installation.

Now, reinstall your tires, sans tubes, and start smiling. I run FOBO(R) Bike 2 (https://www.amazon.com/FOBO-Pressure-Monitoring-Systems-Black/dp/B07Q21RNNB) TPMS on most of my rides now.

Main take-aways from earlier installations: 1) plan the job, 2) thoroughly clean the rims and 3) diligently remove trapped air while laying the tape and subsequent to that the translucent band. Removing air bubbles later can be a total PITA. You can also send your wheels to Woody's, should you wish to rather have it done than sweating through the motions.

 

[10 points]

I’m quite happy with either, patching or changing either roadside is the same amount of effort. I too think the liquid type patches will get you somewhere a proper fix can be implemented.

How do you carry a Jack and tools to take the wheel off? here in the uk garages will only fit /repair tyres to loose wheels.call emergency breakdown if you have a phone signal

 

[nielsm]

Same here, asked and shoptold me tubeless, got bike home and tyre stamped tubless,
Then informed the mitchelin comander 3
Can be both, ...asked shop to confirm
Waiting response not happy

In order to be able to not require tubes, both the tire & the wheel must be able to be tubeless. While the OEM tires of the R18 support being tubeless, both the Pure & the Classic have spoked wheels which are not a tubeless design. Most spoked wheels require tubes since the spokes aren’t airtight where they interface the center part of the wheel. Wheels which are spoked but support tubeless (like those on the BMW GSA) have a different design where the spokes go to the outside of the wheel rim rather than the middle.

 

[MilwDave]

The Kineo tubeless wheels are next on the modification list for my R18 Pure.

 

[10 points]

The Kineo tubeless wheels are next on the modification list for my R18 Pure.

Will be making some enquiries to find costs etc ....Thank you for posting Eddie

 

[10 points]

I’m quite happy with either, patching or changing either roadside is the same amount of effort. I too think the liquid type patches will get you somewhere a proper fix can be implemented.

I asked this question to another member on here , did not get a response , can you respond ?
How can you patch, change tube at the side of the road , you will need to carry a suitable jack tools air etc with the bike having zero carrying capacity?

 

[nielsm]

I asked this question to another member on here , did not get a response , can you respond ?
How can you patch, change tube at the side of the road , you will need to carry a suitable jack tools air etc with the bike having zero carrying capacity?

Tubeless is much easier than tubed. I could see changing a tube on a dirt bike & maybe a lighter adventure bike on the side of the road/trail, but the weight of any of the R18 models & the lack of a center stand would make it more likely a flatbed is the way to address a flat.

 

[10 points]

They could have offered both styles and let the customer pick.
To be honest, I wish they would have the tubeless spoke wheels.
I dig the spoke rims but not with inner tubes.

Your in exactly the same boat as me! I'm looking at
tyre sealent, new rims, outtex , I have complained to the bmw dealer ship and wsiting a response ? Cheers Eddie uk

 

[10 points]

Tubeless is much easier than tubed. I could see changing a tube on a dirt bike & maybe a lighter adventure bike on the side of the road/trail, but the weight of any of the R18 models & the lack of a center stand would make it more likely a flatbed is the way to address a flat.

Exactly my thoughts , my nearest bm shop 35 mls away, think about collecton, repair etc £££ thanks for your response .

 

[10 points]

I'm getting the BMW cast wheels like the ones available on the 2022 models. I like them because they don't alter the look of the bike too much. I can live with that, knowing that I can at least fix a flat by myself in the middle of nowhere.

Callboy, found these in the UK specially made for BMW bikes, perhaps you can find similar in the us , but shipping prohibitive ?
not had a price yet but will be asking ......Thanks Eddie https://www.drwheelbuilding.com/BMW-Wheels/

 

[Calboy]

Callboy, found these in the UK specially made for BMW bikes, perhaps you can find similar in the us , but shipping prohibitive ?
not had a price yet but will be asking ......Thanks Eddie https://www.drwheelbuilding.com/BMW-Wheels/

I bought the BMW cast wheels two weeks into my ownership after realising the rims the bike came with were not tubeless.

 

[MilwDave]

Callboy, found these in the UK specially made for BMW bikes, perhaps you can find similar in the us , but shipping prohibitive ?
not had a price yet but will be asking ......Thanks Eddie https://www.drwheelbuilding.com/BMW-Wheels/

I priced these out at a few American distributors and the pricing is similar.

 

[10 points]

I priced these out at a few American distributors and the pricing is similar.

Thank you, i'll give then a call tomorrow and confirm the price in the uk

 

[bringenufgun]

i got the cast wheels on mine. my main reason is spoke wheels are kind of a pain in the a** to clean. then i found out about tubes vs tubeless and that was icing on the cake.

 

[rem47]

Agreed - those wheels absolutely need to be spoked, and correctly spoked, more so on the Classic as you said. The Outex(R) Kits come with everything you need in the correct quantities and I do tend to get lost with all the different 3M product numbers at times. They really should clean up their marketing act.

First thing obviously is to remove tires, tubes and rubber rim bands and to thoroughly check that the wheels run as true as you wish and what not - now is the best time to vet spoke tightness too. Best have a spoke torque wrench ready for that. Next inspect the spoke nipple surfaces inside the rims - remove any irregular protrusions and sharp edges with the Dremmel. I coat all ground edges with Birchwood Casey(R) gun-metal blue following that (https://www.amazon.com/BW-Casey-Aluminum-Black-Touch-Up/dp/B002JCW2CG/ref=pd_bxgy_img_sccl_1/132-1352578-6743467), but the R18 has Alu rims and SS spokes, so no need in this case. Install the wheel spacers with a piece of threaded bar and fender washers, to allow deep-cleaning the rims (soapy water and a brush). Rinse well and blow thoroughly dry with compressed air, especially around the nipples. This might need to be done twice, depending on how many miles the tires were on. Next, clean the rim insides with glass/window cleaner and wipe again thoroughly with a soft clean cloth.

Now is a good time to read the Outex instructions, watch some videos (http://www.outex.jp/tubelesskitenglishlist.htm) and to do a trial run installing the double-sided tape, but using painters' tape or masking tape, of the appropriate width, instead. Mainly to determine how you will stand or kneel, how you will roll the wheel and work out bubbles, where you need your tools to be and how you will prevent your own sweat from dripping all over the job. You do not want to discover issues with your own application method once you started laying down that double-sided tape. That stuff is wicked sticky and cannot be satisfactorily removed. The main thing is to consistently lay the tape over the rim center, covering nipples properly, and not to unduly stretch the tape while doing that. Do the trial run on the front wheel which has the deeper valley and uses the narrower tape. Don't fret - it is not nearly as daunting as I might make it sound, but it is extremely frustrating if you mess something up due to your own poor planning and preparation. Especially when 'experience' is supposedly the one sure thing validating us not having crossed our 'better-before-date' yet (-: It is a surprisingly quick install once you get your rhythm.

Clean the rims again with window cleaner, wipe dry, and finally clean it with rubbing alcohol and wipe dry again. Now start application as per your preferred video. Woody's supply a goop that they suggest using on the spoke nipples, instead of the small cutout decals in the Outex kit. I prefer the decals nevertheless. Do not skip installing these, as some folk has unwisely opted on occasion. They make it possible to adjust the spokes in future without damaging the Outex installation.

Now, reinstall your tires, sans tubes, and start smiling. I run FOBO(R) Bike 2 (https://www.amazon.com/FOBO-Pressure-Monitoring-Systems-Black/dp/B07Q21RNNB) TPMS on most of my rides now.

Main take-aways from earlier installations: 1) plan the job, 2) thoroughly clean the rims and 3) diligently remove trapped air while laying the tape and subsequent to that the translucent band. Removing air bubbles later can be a total PITA. You can also send your wheels to Woody's, should you wish to rather have it done than sweating through the motions.

Did you do the conversion on a Classic? What widths of Outex tape did your kit come in. The rear rims are the same but the Classic has a 16x3.0 whereas the R18 has 19x3.5. Whether R18 or R18C did both rims have the safety bead on the shoulder? Thinking of buying a Classic but want to be sure of the right Outex kit.

 

[nielsm]

Did you do the conversion on a Classic? What widths of Outex tape did your kit come in. The rear rims are the same but the Classic has a 16x3.0 whereas the R18 has 19x3.5. Whether R18 or R18C did both rims have the safety bead on the shoulder? Thinking of buying a Classic but want to be sure of the right Outex kit.

Outex kits are great for converting dirt wheels which are mostly tubed to being tubeless. This can also work for some adventure bikes. The caveat is the sealing at each spoke nib is limited. It's fundamentally a piece of tape, so any gaps or adhesion loss could cause a pressure loss. Not a big deal of off-road where flats aren't unusual, but a bigger deal on street. The other thing is the weight of the bike. Dirt bikes are 250-350lbs, not the 800+ of a Classic. Pair that with a wheel that may not have a safety bead & it's not a great combo. Tubeless wouldn't help in a sidewall puncture anyway, and you could puncture the tire but not the tube, so tubeless isn't always more resilient than tubes.

To me, either get some cast wheels to run tubeless or embrace the tubed nature of the spoked wheels. While most of my bikes are tubeless, my R75/5 & R18 Classic are tubed. While I always carry a plug kit with my tubeless bikes, I've gotten 2 punctures in 25 years of riding & both of those were on tubeless tires. Maybe I've been especially lucky, but I don't worry about the OEM tubed tires on either my /5 or R18.

 

[estoma]

Did you do the conversion on a Classic? What widths of Outex tape did your kit come in. The rear rims are the same but the Classic has a 16x3.0 whereas the R18 has 19x3.5. Whether R18 or R18C did both rims have the safety bead on the shoulder? Thinking of buying a Classic but want to be sure of the right Outex kit.

I will fit an R18C front wheel on my R18, and it simply looks better, IMHO. The rims and tyres on the R18 and R18C are tubeless, albeit fitted with tubes (since the spokes are not sealed).

The rear wheel on R18 and R18C is a 16 x 5.0, for which you need Outex® Part No. R50 - tape width = 64 mm. It is, in fact, intended for 17/18 x 4.5/6.0 rims, meaning you will have more than enough material.

The 19 x 3.5 R18 front wheel requires Outex® Part No. FR3535 (labelled 17 x 3.5) - tape width = 42 mm. There is sufficient material to cover the 19" rim - Woody's will confirm that when you place the order.

The 16 x 3.0 R18C front wheel requires Outex® Part No. FR21214 (labelled 21 x 2.15) - tape width = 34 mm. Again, plenty of material.

If the kit sizes seem counterintuitive, it is because selecting the proper tape width for each particular rim profile is the most crucial criterion. Contact Woody's, and they will see you sorted:

Outex Tubeless Kit

The Outex Tubeless Kit for tubeless motorcycle wheels is durable, easy to install and reduces the risk of blown tires. Make your motorcycle wheels tubeless today with Outex's tubeless wheel kit!

woodyswheelworks.com

.

 

[estoma]

Outex kits are great for converting dirt wheels which are mostly tubed to being tubeless. This can also work for some adventure bikes. The caveat is the sealing at each spoke nib is limited. It's fundamentally a piece of tape, so any gaps or adhesion loss could cause a pressure loss. Not a big deal of off-road where flats aren't unusual, but a bigger deal on street. The other thing is the weight of the bike. Dirt bikes are 250-350lbs, not the 800+ of a Classic. Pair that with a wheel that may not have a safety bead & it's not a great combo. Tubeless wouldn't help in a sidewall puncture anyway, and you could puncture the tire but not the tube, so tubeless isn't always more resilient than tubes.

To me, either get some cast wheels to run tubeless or embrace the tubed nature of the spoked wheels. While most of my bikes are tubeless, my R75/5 & R18 Classic are tubed. While I always carry a plug kit with my tubeless bikes, I've gotten 2 punctures in 25 years of riding & both of those were on tubeless tires. Maybe I've been especially lucky, but I don't worry about the OEM tubed tires on either my /5 or R18.

There MUST be multiple universes since you and I clearly hail from opposite ones (-:

Serious dirt bikes will not be fitted with tubeless tyres (or Outex® kits) since even the slightest rim ding will see you spontaneously deflated with no workaround out in the bundu.

Adventure bikes with spoked wheels (not to be confused with serious dirt bikes) will already feature some proprietary mechanism allowing tubeless tyres without tubes, e.g., both BMW GS1250 and KTM 1190/1290 Adventure S.

Sealing each spoke nib is NOT limited if you use the correct tape width. My Chief Vintage weighs 380 kg (835 lb) and has been running on Outex® kits for the last seven years already. You will find reams of Outex® successes referenced in Ducati forums, invariably fitted on legacy Track Day rides. Here are a couple of shots from when I did the Indian's wheels:

Front rim cleaned and marked:


Front rim spoke nuts decalled and double-sided tape placed - the decals allows spoke maintenance without disrupting/destroying the double-sided tape (Woody's prefers goop instead of Outex® decals but supplies both):


Front rim almost completed - most air bubbles removed with spoon ends, almost there:


Rear rim completed and 'bubble-less':


Good luck not worrying about remaining lucky riding tubes on your prized, spoked road bikes. A tubed blowout at speed transpires rapidly and invariably ends dramatically.